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ray winstone 9:53 Mon Oct 26
Tax Credits

George Osborne was left reeling tonight after peers dramatically threw out the government's planned tax credits cuts - overturning the views of elected MPs.
The House of Lords voted 289 to 272 delay the changes for three years until measures could be introduced.





Not such a good idea after all eh Gideon.........

Monk~koknee 11:11 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Infidel

I guess I am talking about senior management but below (large company) board level.

I worked for a company that was one of the largest in the FTSE 100. I'm not sure that any public sector manager would earn anywhere near what a board level director would get (especially when you take account of all the options). Certainly not a Local Authority Chief Exec (if that's what they still call them). Not sure what a top Civil Servant earns but doubt they get close either - a gong is their reward.

I came across plenty of relatively senior managers who got where they were without achieving much (I often ask myself now that I am out of it what actual real difference did I make). Don't take any necessary risks was the watchword.

Still I did very nicely out of it, was well paid, have an attractive pension to look forward to (to which I made no financial contribution) and travelled to every continent (except Africa) at company expense.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 10:55 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Sorry, mate. Not having scrolled back several pages, I hadn't realised you were making multiple posts on the basis of a fantasy.

Infidel 10:55 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Monk

I think we were talking specifically about people on very high rates of pay.

As I don't know you from a bar of soap I don't know how high you rose in your career but if you became, say, a main board director of FTSE 500 company without having to do anything to deserve it I would be surprised.

Mike Oxsaw 10:39 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Zero, so you missed the bit about "which, in reality would never happen unless it was in a dedicated pipe or a fleet of tankers."

I assume you saw points to score early on and didn't need to bother with the whole post.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 9:56 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Mike Oxsaw 5:58 Tue Nov 10

'Debs, Thames could "supply" your water in the same way that the owners of Sizewell & Hinkley Point supply (some of) your electricity.'

Have we suddenly built that national water grid? I must have missed the announcement of its completion...

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 9:53 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

, 12:15 Tue Nov 10

I agree with every word of that.

***swoons***

Monk~koknee 9:28 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

I was employed for close to 40 years. The first 25% in the public sector and the remainder in the private sector. I didn't find a great deal of difference in the route to promotion. Patronage, networking and a deft body swerve to make sure you are associated with the successes and distanced from the failures being the key attributes.

In both the internal politics always trump results - the exception is likely to be where results are directly measurable in areas such as sales.

Infidel 9:12 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

*£50 grand a week

Infidel 9:11 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Comma

I don't think you have any idea what it takes to become a senior manager in most large private sector companies.

The competition for promotions internally is intense, high pressure and at times brutal. You live by your results, you build up credibility over time, you work extra hours, you take a few risks and you try to make yourself the right choice when a vacancy comes up.

As a result the people in the top jobs on big packages are generally the ones who deserve to be there.

I exclude from this financial services where mediocre middle managers earned seven figure bonuses in the crazy years before 2008. That's a separate topic.

It's very like professional football. Every armchair pundit likes to say that player X is useless and not worth his £50 grand a year but that's only because nobody stops to consider what it takes to get into the Premier League

There are about 4,000 professional footballers in the UK today and the vast majority take home very modest pay packets and have to retire in their mid thirties. They all want to play in the Premier League but to get there you have to out-compete hundreds of other players who all have the same outstanding school and county record you do.

It's like going for an audition every day with hundreds of people in a casting where there is only one place open - and now it's even worse with the influx of foreign players. You are competing against the whole world.

Those who do make it got there on merit. When you watch a player struggling at Premier League level you have to consider that he was chosen because he had something special that the scouts spotted, he was better than hundreds of others.

In the public sector things are very different. You get promoted because of 'seniority' and because you spout all the right PC socialist nonsense. See how far you get in the town hall hierarchy is you happen to be a UKIP supporter. Merit has nothing to do with it.

Mike Oxsaw 8:27 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Monk~koknee 6:05 Tue Nov 10

That's also how many of us within the business saw it to, Monk. There were strong - very strong - rumours that several well-stuffed brown envelopes crossed the Atlantic at round about the time this happened, but those of us who realised what was happening were also the ones too busy to say or do anything about it.

There really are some situations where a monopoly is the best solution.

Monk~koknee 6:05 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

This is a year or so old but interesting about broadband in the UK. You can draw your own conclusions on state versus private sector as far as infrastructure is concerned

http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/how-the-uk-lost-the-broadband-race-in-1990-1224784

Mike Oxsaw 5:58 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Debs, Thames could "supply" your water in the same way that the owners of Sizewell & Hinkley Point supply (some of) your electricity.

You'd take out of "the system" a certain amount of water and Thames would replace it, charging you for the process. The water you get would be exactly the same as that had you "stuck with" your local supplier, so you'd actually just be paying for the cost of "transporting" the Thames water across the country to replace that which you used, which, in reality would never happen unless it was in a dedicated pipe or a fleet of tankers.

Furthermore, your local company would most likely charge Thames for "handling & delivering their water to you", a charge that Thames would almost certainly pass onto you, so you'd still be paying them (something) either way.

Darlo Debs 1:20 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Yes but not practical and undermines the concept of consumer choice somewhat.

After8 1:16 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

It would be great if you could though debs!

Darlo Debs 1:14 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Though in some situations and with some industries that it is simply unworkable isn't it?
I can't say, I am not happy with my Northumbrian water, can Thames water provide my supply from now on please.

After8 1:10 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Comma, I have zero tolerance for rigging the market or corruption as would any real conservative as we believe in free markets.

, 1:07 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

The people in local government are being funded by us rate payers. They are clearly overpaid by some margin.

Then so too are people at the top in the private sector. As has been revealed, and there is more to come, these people have been making money by forming cartels and deliberately rigging markets. That is not clever or highly intellectual management rather it is fraud and embezzlement.

After8 12:34 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Comma,

While it's all very well and noble to say people in the private sector earn too much you are failing to mention that those people in the private sector are paying a lot in tax which helps fund the public services.

You might say that public sector salaries are too high but a lot on the left are remarkably quiet about this topic and could do well to learn from your example.

After8 12:32 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Ray, if we're bringing newspaper ownership into it, what about the guardian which is owned by a non Dom trust and pays no UK tax?

, 12:15 Tue Nov 10
Re: Tax Credits

Infidel, You post like I'm defending the pay of senior people in the public sector but I'm not. They get paid too much and so too do most top people in the private sector.

No problem with the self made men making loads of money where they have started with an idea, taken calculated risks, and have built something from scratch. However most of the people at the top have simply stood on the shoulders of giants so to speak and lined their pockets at the expense of company stakeholders with almost no risk to themselves.

Infidel 11:13 Mon Nov 9
Re: Tax Credits

Comma

I'm afraid that won't wash.

The jobs in the town hall - Director of Children's Services and the like - are easy administrative jobs, little more than tick box exercises.

Town halls don't have to deal with the number one preoccupation of people in the private sector - competition. The fact that one's competitors wake up every day trying to find new ways to put you out of business means that in the private sector we live with a Sword of Damocles hanging over us,no job security whatsoever and the punishing pressure of shareholders who expect a return on their investment.

Council workers have no competitors. They turn up for work at 9:30, hold a few meetings and go home at 5 o'clock. They get long holidays and a grotesque pension when they retire.

That's why no council worker should ever be paid more than £40k p.a. . Even in the top jobs the intellectual level required is that of a junior brand manager in a private company.

Just because they put the word 'strategic' in their job title doesn't mean any actual strategy is required. How can you even have a strategy for children in Wandsworth or Harrow? Do any of the children in those boroughs know what the 'strategy' is? Do the parents?

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